In turn, they may react intensely and with a need to counteract this perceived opponent. Vindictive behavior might look different in every case. Sometimes, it might be about sabotaging another person. In other instances, it might be saying something hurtful or using something they know against the person. Absolutely not. Only a mental health professional can make an accurate diagnosis.
In other words, Henry says, they may have low empathy for others. Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition with complex cognitive and behavioral processes. It affects how you see yourself, others, and the world in general. Underneath an apparent sense of superiority, there might also be an exaggerated need to feel approved and loved, and a vulnerable self-esteem.
In this sense, some people with NPD might experience any hint of rejection as a trigger for vindictive behavior. These actions might not be directed at the person with NPD. But for someone with the disorder, this instance can be perceived as a direct threat or challenge to their own worth. Being in a relationship with someone with narcissistic personality can be challenging.
It might be particularly difficult if they act in a vindictive way. Someone with the disorder may try to challenge these boundaries or try to convince you to adjust them. Stand firm. Any compromise you make will most likely benefit them, and that, according to Hardy, is an unhealthy compromise.
Admittedly, it can be really challenging for some people to set these kinds of boundaries, especially if the person with NPD is a close family member. When you set your own terms, the person with NPD has a chance to understand them and either accept them or walk away. If they say hateful and disrespectful things to you, and then you do not have anything to say… you are validating their position. In some relationships with people with NPD, you might second-guess or overly question yourself.
This may be because some people with narcissistic personalities may use manipulation tactics and games. When a person is acting vindictively, they might say things that seek to define you in a certain way. Remember, they have a condition that might distort the way they interpret your behavior or any given situation. This one can be quite challenging, especially if they say something hurtful toward you. It might be so.
But someone with NPD may not ever admit to it. Narcissists are often vindictive and they often stalk and harass. Basically, there are only two ways of coping with vindictive narcissists:. Narcissists live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. They firmly believe that everyone is like them. As a result, they are paranoid, suspicious, scared and erratic. Frightening the narcissist is a powerful behaviour modification tool.
If sufficiently deterred - the narcissist promptly disengages, gives up everything he fought for and sometimes make amends. To act effectively, one has to identify the vulnerabilities and susceptibilities of the narcissist and strike repeated, escalating blows at them - until the narcissist lets go and vanishes.
Example: If a narcissist has a secret - one should use this to threaten him. One should drop cryptic hints that there are mysterious witnesses to the events and recently revealed evidence. The narcissist has a very vivid imagination. Let his imagination do the rest. The narcissist may have been involved in tax evasion, in malpractice, in child abuse, in infidelity - there are so many possibilities, which offer a rich vein of attack.
If done cleverly, non-committally, gradually, in an escalating manner - the narcissist crumbles, disengages and disappears. He lowers his profile thoroughly in the hope of avoiding hurt and pain.
Most narcissists have been known to disown and abandon a whole PNS Pathological Narcissistic Space in response to a well-focused campaign by their victims.
Thus, a narcissist may leave town, change a job, desert a field of professional interest, avoid friends and acquaintances - only to relieve the unrelenting pressure exerted on him by his victims. At the time, we had been traveling together out of state! The happiest day in our lives was when his kids were all 18 and there were no more excuses for her to interact with us.
So please, get real and give a two-sided version of what really goes on out there. If even one woman can learn from my experience, I will be happy. In those cases, I think the only thing to do is to break off contact entirely. There were No limits when it came to my ex husband and his vengeful ways!!
I had suffered through the entire marriage, just being with someone who could have thoughts like that, let alone do the most ugly things imaginable to someone they had a child with is horrible!! Your story of the ex-husband and his vengeful nature, only reminded me of mine and all the things he done when i left him, it was terrible!! To this day, when or if he gets the chance to curse and scream at the top of his lungs to me, the most ugly,horrific things, he will do it!!
I was his second wife! Hatred for their ex-spouses run deep and very, very hard!! Somethings bad wrong with someone who thinks like that.. If you listen carefully, they will tell on themselves. They might not ever blame them selves for anything…but they for sure will blame their ex-spouses for it all!!
I am going through this same thing at the moment. Years of physical and mentally abusive, emotional abandonment. He has even been to jail for assault by strangulation and assault in front of our minor children.
Please contact me if you wish. Thank you for sharing this. Makes me feel like I am not alone…. I am still going through this with my ex — and we divorced in He made false reports to the Department of Child protection, the police, he called up all sorts of people including my employer trying to get me to lose my job.
I was a teacher right? According to his reports I was a drug addict, prostitute, child abuser, been charged with fraud — you name it. None of this foul stuff was true. He also turned my son against his sister and all of my loving family. I self represented against a lawyer, and won if there is ever any winning?
He is a constant threat. His affect on my children has been catastrophic. I can relate. I just recently went through another episode I call them bombs with my ex. I left him 14 years ago and it never ends. The DV shelter that counseled me before I left him recommended going underground with my kids. The anger that I have dealt with from him is incredible. Years ago I had severe problems at the daycare.
The director pulled me into her office one day telling me he was saying awful things to the other parents about me and even following the teachers out to their cars telling them I was a bi polar lesbian, off my meds and dangerous. But even with his bizarre, scary behavior they believed him. All I used to do was say hi to everyone and pick up my daughter. To this day he is angry, abusive and intent on dragging my name through the mud. Several years ago I left my husband of two years in order to have economic freedom.
I still loved him, but he would always answer my questions of love with the fact the I must pay my expenses which were, really, mostly his expenses. In addition, he believed the only way I could find happiness was in listening to him. I left very sadly , but I did achieve that freedom , as I was bound by document to pay him for the rest of my life.
I wished to return to the marriage on a normal basis, but have found the last years of divorce filled with constant blame and unkindness. I have been told that I am completely at fault and have been verbally attacked and insulted. So my only recourse is to stop all communications. It is hard to understand why someone would want to destroy me, when I know in my heart that I offered this man love, kindness, a good home and respect.
In return I received some companionship, but never an appreciation of my worth as a person — in fact I have been repeatedly demeaned intellectually and emotionally.
I am still recovering from the most recent attacks and have distanced myself for survival. I would like to meet with other ex-wives of such a situation. Even though I know intellectually that these attacks are false and understand that this man is projecting, there is definite emotional pain connected to this.
I survive by continuing to be myself, because,regardless of those attacks, I know I gave my heart to someone who married me for the wrong reasons.
Thank you — Anonymous. The YWCA note the W is a nonprofit agency that provides advocacy, safe housing, and recuperative services for individuals, families, children impacted by physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.
Court testimony is provided for court-mandated cases. There is a 24 hour hotline for people in crisis. Individual and peer group counseling are part of recuperative services and there are some peer social groups. Child care and transportation may be available.
Some YWCA agencies can provide in-home services. Until you can find in-person support group, go to other online forums like: Lisa Scott , dr Irene, out of the fog and welcome to oz. It helps and you can do it any time of the day or night.
Some have found Codependentd Anonymous support groups and Alanon support groups helpful too. I found your reply to Jon above very interesting as well as this post, because I feel also that I am very attracted to narcissists due to their initial flattery and my low self-esteem , though, thank goodness, I am finally learning to be more discerning. He is a bully, but an extremely charming one. He is a regular public speaker known publicly for his balanced views etc.
I wonder how on earth people can deal with narcissism in a boss — I certainly try to avoid him and never express any views to him following the above confrontation — but it makes for a poor workplace because it breeds a culture of blame and mistrust and fear. In many ways, it resembles the experience of a child with narcissist parents, who has to conform to the needs of those parents rather than have their own needs addressed. At least you have the option of looking for another job!
I am job-hunting, in fact. I am very hopeful, daunted etc as I begin this treatment, please wish me luck! We have a boss who is also narcissistic. Everyone has a difficulty of establishing a good relationship with her because of the bad attitude. Manipulative, very emotional, critic of the works of others, one who is expert in demoralizing the ego of co workers or subordinates and verbally aggressive. I believe that a person like this needs medical and professional help, a sort of mental treatment.
If you did have the opportunity to treat such a person, how would you begin? Do you think you could ever succeed? If I were to treat such a person, virtually all of the work would need to focus on the transference. I would expect that contempt for and devaluation of me would feature powerfully, along with arrogance and some murderous feelings such as the ones you describe.
Behind all of that, however, I would expect to find someone unbearably vulnerable, who loathes himself for his own needs and fears.
It would be a long, hard slog. My narcissist had an emotional affair while I was ill. He refuses to acknowledge his lies, betrayal, secrecy and abandonement. He claims his poems about the ow were just friendship and I am overreacting.
In expecting recovery and repair with his help, he has told me I am on my own and in fact caused his loss of job he and she were found out at work. His vindictiveness has surfaced in a way I have never seen. He filed divorce because I am unforgiving and angry. He can not hold my emotions or say sorry. He then filed an injunction to keep our kids from going out of state with me as I would surely steal them. He is now trying to get me to reduce our home price so he can buy me out and actually afford it do es not consider how I am going to live all while trying to take half of my personal injury settlement.
He filed while o was a stay at home mom without medical insurance to pay for my type 1 diabetes. He said I better look quick for a job. After arguing about why I should reduce the price of our home for the buyout, he then says maybe we should just work it out. He plays with my mind. There is no empathy or concern — only taking and a privileged feeling. I believe that The VN will always feel he must continue to destroy the ex spouse long after the marriage is dissolved.
My daughter is in the process of divorcing a guy she was married to for 20 years. He blames her and the kids for everything, then plays the victim. His business allows him to hide hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
Has his lawyer set and then cancel court hearings causing more delays. He can only feel comfortable if he creates conflict and chaos when he is present around the family.
It appears that he accuses his family of is what he is projecting about his own pathology. He does very little to give but when he does it is for show only.
It sucks to see him winning at this game of life that he is dictating for my daughter and these beautiful children. I can only think that every dog has its day! My ex exactly. Embarrassing to have fallen for his false nice guy. He hated my mom.
Cause she saw his selfish, cheap meany. My Ex is a complete Narcissist. There is a strong history of mental illness in his family such as Bi-Polar and Depression. Recently, his sister was diagnosed with BPD. So I am wondering if there is any evidence that personality disorders are heredity like mental disorders? If indeed you are a professional, I hope never to cross paths with you.
Now we know that narcs have lack of gray matter as recently shown in MRIs, published elsewhere. Somebody did something bad to them, and now we blame them???? This is transgenerational trauma sp. I hear so many women who underscore chose to marry a man and in a couple of years they are divorced because he is narcissistic, abuser. How about underscore choosing to reproduce with this man?
If indeed narcissism is in large part genetic, then those children are at risk of being narcs themselves. Are these ladies going to call their own flesh and blood, these creatures that they chose to bring to the world, things like murderous snakes?
Or perhaps they will realize that their father, the man they chose, is transmitting genes to their children that will select them as favorites for the development of narcissism? I am 60 yrs old, and my 90 yr old mother just finished discarding me permanently.
Believe me, it hurts still. But I saw the place where she grew up, and knew of the cruelly-disadvantaged position that was her home. My mother adores animals, and thanks to her practice of rescueing them, today I have a career working advocating animal rights.
Narcissists are not all bad, and they are victims themselves. Not that we should expose ourselves to their insanity, but if any of you call yourselves a Christian, you better not judge. Mar, first of all, your message is not quite clear. And it may well be true that they are sick, and a product of their upbringing, their environment, their education, whatever, but that does not excuse their behavior.
What you describe your mother doing, holding your hand while shooting herself, is truly tragic from so many angles; but to dismiss her behavior as merely a manifestation of her illness is irresponsible. It is up to them to take advantage of those clear moments and seek help. Yes, they are sick; but they are not unconscious.
They are not robots going through life. They have brains and resources, some of them much, much more than others they are highly intelligent. The problem is that their illness is precisely what tells them there is nothing wrong with them.
This is what makes is so very difficult to treat, because the narcissist does not really believe he or she is sick. And Christianity has nothing to do with this. And particularly where the women has been rejected in favor of another.
Until the motivation to find a new path for themselves is higher than the motivation to remain a victim, their vindictive narcissists will revel in their victimhood and seek revenge. It is as simple as that. It is simpler and cleaner to remain a victim and be vindictive than it is to do the sometimes brutal work of finding a new path.
The therapeutic key with these people — women or men — is to understand the psychology of motivation. I think the difference may simply be a result of accident, that I just happen to have encountered more men than women who behave this way. I know what you mean.
Some people often with understandable, if misguided, reasons have antagonistic feelings toward the opposite sex and tend to explain everything in terms of the perceived faults of that sex: for example, blaming men for everything that goes wrong in sexual relationships some of this showed up in my earlier post offering advice on certain relationship issues. It simplifies issues and stops people from looking inward and taking responsibility for themselves.
Hating and blaming can be such a refuge from inner truth! Are you the adultery partner, perchance? If so, then maybe it would have been wiser to not target a married man.
This world gets distracted by the end domino, instead of tracing it back to the initial domino. My mum is narcissistic and divorced my dad. That he or she is actually a serial cheater or secret gambler, that he or she had an affair with So-and-so, and so forth. I guess it would depend on the motivation. Charming, handsome, passionate but oh so narcisstic.
He cheated on my mother, which resulted in a divorce. He often had relationships with 2 or 3 women at the same time. He cheated on his ladyfriends in our presence and told me and my brother to keep our mouths shut.
He even had a relationship with the wife of one of my teachers! I am so ashamed and mortified of this. He left my mother with immense debts, which took her years to pay off. He dispases her for this. The mother of my half-brother was ruined by him. Twice he took off and disappeared abroad for a couple of years, without any contact, no explanation. Reappearing as if nothing had happened. For years I underwent his fury, his anger, his blaming, his rage.
I settled with the negative attention, desperate to know him. According to him the women in his life had treated him badly. His parents were hard, they beat their children daily in case they had misbehaved. He hates and loathes his parents, who have been dead for years.
He will always be his own number one. Then will come his ladyfriend. I will never come even third or fourth, if his ladyfriends have children, they will come before me or my brothers.
Once, I broke up all contact with him. I had no more tears left for him. I refused to be talked to or treated the way he did. After 6 months he wrote me a letter, where he sort of apologized for his behavior.
I reconciled with him, but on my terms. This works out just fine. I believe he hates women, he treats them really bad, despises them. Women are only good for sex and to show off what he can get. Do you think narcisstic characters are able to love? I have learnt to accept my dad will never change, not really. When someone blames everyone for everything bad in his life, assumes no responsibility for his heinous behavior and shows no ability to understand the feelings of anyone else, it seems pretty clear he lacks the capacity for empathy and for genuine love.
Only members of the mafia and immigrants from some uncivilized places still have this mentality. They know society will blame and despise them for the murder and that they will get at least 20 years of jail, maybe even a life sentence, depending on circumstances. Apparently, men feel more entitled than women to think that others must live for them.
Something wrong with the way parents bring male children up? Whether the shame is strictly internal or reinforced by society, viewing another person as a mere extension of the self, meant to prop up our self-image, is entirely narcissistic. Had been looking forward to it from the day you announced this would be your next topic did not reply sooner because of vacation.
When you say that viewing another person as a mere extension of the self — no matter if this happens due to internal or due to societal reasons — is entirely narcissistic, what does that say about societies that still condone honour killings?
Are men in these societies by default allowed to be vindictive narcissists and get away with it? I think different societies tolerate varying degrees of individuation. On the whole, Western Civilization celebrates the individual whereas other cultures may revere the tribe, or conformity to a societal norm. Individual self-fulfillment is not a goal of all societies; many others instead prize self-sacrifice in the service of the group. The issue of honor killing is complicated. In many cultures, women are viewed as the possession of the man, so in that sense, I think these cultures do promote a kind of narcissism.
Such cultures are usually infused with notions of public honor and public shame, as well, so I guess in a way they are structurally narcissistic. I wonder why male narcissism keeps existing and killing in evolved societies, that publicly condemn it.
Why do these guys feel entitled to think a woman must live for their happyness? A couple of years ago, I was in Rocky Mountain National Park about this time of year, when the elks were mating. The dominant males would protect their females from the younger males, bugling as a warning and sometimes actually fighting. Eventually, I suppose, the elder males age and weaken to the point where the younger males drive them off or kill them.
It feels like some vestige of the herd mentality and social hierarchies within the herd. What do you think? Social shame, the loss of honour is a matter of life or death: disonhoured families risk extintion: no one will marry them no one will do business with them etc.
I wonder if this can be called narcissism. I would like to consult an ethologist about the role of shame in animals: do they feel it? Maybe these feelings of entitlement are still there because the time when they were justified has not been over long, not even in western societies.
If you wanted to be an architect, you married an architect. I very much appreciate this article, as it helps me better understand the process that vindictive narcissists go through. The extreme measures that a VN will endure to protect themselves from narcissistic injuries is incredibly scary — especially the sheer lack of ownership and twisted perceptions. I successfully maintained my boundary to not engage in any further communication, but it led to some scary consequences — including having my house pelted with mud balls AND having her deliberately attempt to run me over with her truck when seeing me at a store parking lot 8 months after I discontinued our friendship!
The experience has left me fearful of entering into new friendships, because I obviously play a role in inviting these types of people into my life. Through years of therapy, I am now more in tune to the potential red flags of BPD and narcissistic behaviors, and I am working towards being more assertive in relationships my downfall.
I never knew how dangerous it was until it happened to me. This was actually happening before i left him, he was watching me and listening to me, had devices hidden in our home to record me, he is crazy! Vengeful should be his name, he is full of it! I shoulda known better. His family, they all rallied behind him and supported him and his vengeful ways towards women, even his momma! She once told me if i were to be more submissive, i might not have the issues with him! I just had to learn how to deal and handle things, be watchful for him.
He used to sneak up to our house windows at night, put his ear up to it, and listen to me and my son talking. Anyways, i never returned home to that abuse or to any more abuse ever again. I now have a wonderful life, without him in it. People like that almost never get treatment.
I am wondering if it would be possible to discuss this further with you? I recently left what I believe to be a VN, my husband and the father of two of my children. Almost a year ago my two older children were forced to leave bc of my husband, and live for the first time in their 11 and 12 years with their SP father whom I never married , who has completely alienated them from me.
I left to try to get stronger, etc. I wholeheartedly believe he was watching me.. I am blown away by his vindictiveness.. Then he would turn back on the charm.. I did not know that someone you loved and vowed to could possibly ever go to the depths he has..
My digression, I apologize. I am swirling. I suppose I am most interested in knowing how you discovered that he was listening, etc. He has messed with the electrical, etc. I wholeheartedly relate.. Please help me..
I have really truly been slaughtered by this man I was once a single professional mom.. And then this man came and pursued.. I am learning. I am hoping that maybe someone out there will take a chance on my truth. You may remember that scene in the film Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, where dangling from a rope into a cavern he drops a torch which illuminates a floor of congealed twisting snakes before he plummets in head first. Against the threatening hisses and striking fangs all he has is a little light in a dark place to move around the terrain cautiously.
And so it is that most of us in some measure work to counteract our narcissism in the same way I would say. Do the snakes represent the feelings of narcissistic injury, where one wants to lash out and attack others due to unbearable shame? Just figuring this all out, btw. Bye bye pathological family of origin filled with successful ivy league doctors and graduates , bye bye pathological flying monkey friends.
Hello simpler, less complicated existence. And yes, the best thing to do with the vindictive narcissist is disengage. They really are not worth the trouble, of course we are trained to think otherwise. I have heard horror stories from fellow survivors of N parents who were more physically ruthless. I am starting to wrap my head against these same defense mechanisms taking place on a larger cultural and institutional basis.
Honor killings manifest this pathology perfectly. The offloading of shame is really an evil defense mechanism in my opinion, speaking as someone who was the manifestation of all the badness inside my mother she could not hold herself.
I am done carrying their water. I also like how you describe carrying the badness that cannot be tolerated by the other person. Hey J, Such folks are best avoided — makes me think of Scientologists. Hopefully some of have evolved beyond that point. Revenge as a pleasurable motivation linked to survival. That must mean that the narcissist experiences humiliation or shame as a kind of existential threat that calls forth the vindictive revenge response as a survival mechanism.
By inference, a strong probability. You sure have a knack for writing clear and thought provoking stuff! You say that you believe a narcissist has an unbearable sense of shame but what about those that have a very large amount of confidence. She helps others with their work as long as it proves how smart she is and is constantly talking about others on the job behind their backs.
She uses that as a conversation starter. Sounds like a struggle with shame to me. I honestly find it hard to empathize with her and her sense of shame when I feel under attack.
Her behavior in general just confuses me. She seems to be trustworthy,very calm and rational and never shows signs of frustration. I suppose what you decide to do ought to take into account the potential threat she poses. As you know, the vindictive narcissist can be relentless in her search for revenge if her self-esteem feels threatens. I am not as educated as you and your guests that have replied, but women have the power, right or wrong, to do as they please with the lives of their ex-spouse.
And ov-course everyone will believe or side with the female. Then all of a sudden men are ashamed??? Wow, what a statement! I know that, yes it is cases of some, not all women that do play the victim card in order to get what they want otr need at that moment in time.
Most women though are NOT like that, at all! The real victims, which usually are women.. I refuse to allow myself to be a victim. What i am is, a former wife of a maniac! I will not allow myself to stand or live in the shadows of former abuse. The decisions that i have made, are to better the life of me and my child, who is a grown young man now.
I got myself into this mess and i got myself out of this mess, of course with the help of some very wonderful people. I really think that these people who are being abusive to their spouses, whatever their sex may be, are the ones who want to play victim in this game.
Thank you for your article. I recently ended a relationship with a man I believe is narcissistic. In ending, I think I made it pretty clear that I had figured out what he was really like, figured out his desire for control, and his tendency to use and manipulate people.
After the break up, which coincided with other crises in his life, he fell apart and fell into a severe depression. We are co-workers, and he is in a position of higher power at our company. For now, every time he sees me he flees in the opposite direction. How should I act if we have to see each other face to face?
The fact that he fell into a depression is a hopeful sign. If he turns to you emotionally, you might want to steer him toward psychotherapy. Hi, Joseph, and thank you for your reply. That gives me some hope. He is in psychotherapy, or at least he was the last time I spoke to him. Hopefully his therapist will help him channel his feelings. He has been going through a major life crisis as a result of his selfish, unempathic behavior, which, among other things, ended in his losing me although he claimed he loved me.
Can someone like that change when faced with a life crisis? I was married to a narcissist for fourteen years, had three children, and divorced him three years ago.
I grew up steeped in fundamental religion where the subjugation of women was the norm. Narcissism was all I knew. Things finally started making sense. I sought help from a secular counselor and filed for divorce soon after. While my ex had a girlfriend a college student who worked for him whom he later married towards the end of our marriage who knows about the earlier years , it was the maddening confusion and manipulation that was the most difficult.
He has since told family, friends, and our three daughters that I left him for another man. I feel framed. Real victims are silenced while narcissists play the martyr and get off scot-free — all the while accusing us of playing the victim card.
It is constant projection. One could easily feel like they were going crazy. I understand this — in fact, this has been my MO with him as well as members of my family — but the injustice is maddening. I realize my peace and worth lie in knowing the truth in my heart and yet there are times when I wish so badly it would all be exposed — regardless of the aftermath. While I was, in fact victimized, I am determined to be the hero of my life and not the victim.
I completely understand that sense of injustice, and I admire your resolve not to take refuge from it in the victim role. The fact that your ex-husband is a minister complicates matters, since he holds a certain stature in the public eye and no doubt makes sure to keep his vindictiveness out of view.
You just hit a nerve! I have scanned the web for hours looking for help in how to deal with an Extreme Narcissist who happens to be a Priest. Talking about Clergy seems to be Taboo. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. These men are given too much power, and are seldom checked on by their superiors. If you are brave enough to file a complaint to the Human Resource Dept. They protect these men with a vengeance. I worked for my Church for over 20yrs. I had the pleasure of working with some wonderful Priests.
But the current Pastor is not one of them. Understanding that he was not going to change, and the situation was not going to improve, I decided to hand in my 2 week notice and get as far away from him as I could.
What are you supposed to do when you try to walk away, but they still seek you out for attack? He was verbally and sexually abusive with me during our marriage. We had two children in our marriage. He was physically and emotionally abusive to our son.
Spanking in anger, putting his head in the toilet for leaving a little urine on the rim, and there are dents in the fridge doors from my sons head, yet my ex was still permitted visitation, and eventually gained the custody of the son by turning him against me-basically my son turned into a reporter for his dad against me.
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